Post Signing Day Reactions
by The Ghost of Jay Cutler on Feb 3, 2012 9:00 AM EST
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PrintIf you were to sum up your thoughts and feelings about this most recent Rebel signing class into just a couple hundred words, how would you? What about this class stands out? What about this class disappoints you? What does this class mean for the 2012 football season and beyond? What does this class tell us about our new coaching staff?
Those questions, and others, were ones we at the Cup have attempted to tersely answer. Read our thoughts and opinions, then offer yours, if you'd like.
Juco All-American:
People who say that our class is alright are delusional. This is a pitiful SEC class. We got very few players who project to be major contributors. It would have been nice to get a high school quarterback. It would have been nice to get a second defensive tackle. Sure, we met most of our actual immediate needs, but that doesn't make a signing class good. A good signing class leaves you wondering how you'll find snaps for all the good players. This class cannot be described that way.
Now onto the things that make the class better than terrible: We didn't sign very many players who don't project to ever play. Most of them will eventually see time, which means we avoided the typical "transition" class. I'm happy not to have taken players simply to get to 25 signees. The last thing we need is worthless players taking up a scholarship for five years. We don't appear to have gotten many of those people. Also, the top of our class is pretty solid. It's just that the depth of the class is mediocre at best. Overall, I'm disappointed.
While most people will probably write this off as a failure on behalf of Nutt, I think some of the blame has to be placed on Freeze's shoulders. He closed horribly, missing out on several players who had no business going elsewhere. We lost three players we offered to KENTUCKY. Pitiful.
TGoJC:
I am disappointed in this class, but only because we were in late with so many high-profile recruits who wound up signing elsewhere. Over the past few years, we've become accustomed to signing guys who were perhaps on the fence between Ole Miss and other rival SEC schools, so that arguably spoiled us a little bit regarding our hopes for 2012's signing day. Missing out on Sheldon Dawson, Richie Brown, and Cordarrelle Patterson stung, but the fact that we were still in it late with guys of that talent level, despite having a 2-month-old coaching staff and a 10-loss season on our side, says a lot about this program and coaching staff.
When attempting to figure out what we've gotten out of this class, I look for immediate impact guys versus those who are going to redshirt and provide valuable depth for a few seasons. The immediate impact types of Channing Ward, Bo Wallace, Trae Elston, Dehendret Collins, Pierce Burton, I'Tavius Mathers, and Issac Gross. Not all of them will see significant roles, while others are already penciled in as starters. So I suppose that one could best describe this class as top heavy (and, yes, "heavy" is a pretty relative term here), and a decent one to contribute to whatever, if any, success we are to have in 2012.
MexterDcCluster:
I guess my first impressions this morning are that I'm disappointed, but not with Coach Freeze necessarily. After our worst season in school history, the fact that our class isn't blatantly the worst in the SEC is something that makes me feel a little easier. We have a young D-Line, but Ward should come in and be able to contribute immediately in my opinion. Gross will add needed depth at D-Tackle, thought I would be surprised if he redshirts to put on about 20-30 lbs.
Holding onto I'Tavius Mathers was huge. He has a good build, good speed, good vision and seems like a real every-down back. Though I don't know what the deal is with Nick Parker, I'm glad we added a back like Loyal. (insert easy Enrique/vision joke here). I'm also glad we picked up a solid DB in Eltson.
Like I said, I'm not happy with it because we missed out on some guys we might have had. However, considering the conditions surrounding the program, I think Freeze did a fine job at not letting this be the disaster that it very well could have been.
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is was
a bad haul overall. I do not say that because of some website’s arbitrary star rating. We were doomed by their ratings to start with as we had a very small senior class and thus hit the 85 scholarship limit with much fewer players coming in than most schools. As far as immediate needs, they were met fairly well by this class. We desperately need a left tackle that can play immediately and we need depth at running back. We got the best JUCO left tackle option out there and we did pretty well recruiting at running back. I give kudos to the staff for those accomplishments. With every class, there are certain positions that you need to satisfactorily fill to maintain for the future. I feel like we did not accomplish that and unless we are able to overcome that deficit next year— a more difficult task than some realize but certainly not impossible— we will suffer for it in a few years. We could argue all year about whose fault it is or how much blame to place where, but placing blame won’t accomplish anything at this point. If we have a few years of bad classes, then it will be obvious where to place blame and we will need to do so in order to fix the problem.
the players
we DID get are great. I just feel like there are a few spots left glaringly open on our future needs list.
Star ratings are hardly "arbitrary".
The rating systems aren’t perfect sciences, but they’re more accurate than inaccurate. This has been demonstrated pretty well by bloggers with more time and effort than yours truly.
I do know that Brent Schaeffer was a five star while Patrick Willis was a two star. I do know that you could come up with plenty of examples where a five star fell flat and a two or three star rose to stardom. I get all of that. They’re exceptions to the rule, however, and exceptions generally do not disprove the rule.
Red Cup Rebellion - Changing the Culture of Ole Miss Athletics
Sports are chaotic and stupid; and we're bad at them.
by The Ghost of Jay Cutler on Feb 3, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
star ratings
may not be arbitrary (depending on who is giving them) but the average fan’s interpretation of them is. The ratings themselves may not be arbitrary, but there is a certain amount of guess work and bias applied when they are given. Some sites are worse than others. However, there are several flaws with rating classes based on adding the number of stars and such. In our case, we do not have 25 new scholarships to give. If we signed the allowable 25, either some of those would have to be left out in the fall or we would have to lose a currently rostered player as we can only have 85 total players. Because of our small graduating class this year, we can not add as many scholarship players as most schools. We hit the 85 limit before we hit the 25 limit. My point was, with the way the class rankings are done, we were doomed from a website ranking standpoint. Even if we’d had a great class, the ranking on the websites would have been low because of the total number of players. If someone wants to say we had a bad class because of comparative rankings by websites, I’d call BS for that reason. If someone wants to say that we had a bad class because some needs were not met, then that would be a valid opinion and I happen to agree with that opinion.
I see what you're saying.
From the standpoint of class rankings, yeah, we were sorta doomed.
But when people spout off examples of Patrick Willis and Enrique Davis as to why the star ratings are flawed, all I have to do is point out that Reggie Bush, Darren McFadden, Vince Young, Tim Tebow, Julio Jones, and a gazillion other badass college football players were five star prospects out of high school.
Thile nailed it on the macro vs. micro.
Red Cup Rebellion - Changing the Culture of Ole Miss Athletics
Sports are chaotic and stupid; and we're bad at them.
by The Ghost of Jay Cutler on Feb 3, 2012 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
the best indication
that there may be SOME arbitrary nature to some of the ratings isn’t that some five stars are busts and some two stars turn out great, but rather that one site will give a player five stars and another will give them two, or less. There is no way to predict how a 17 or 18 year old is going to develop over the next three years or so with 100% accuracy. I can also say with some degree of knowledge that every player with ANY stars is a high school star with some kind of athletic potential. The sites are not going to even recognize them otherwise.
Um
[O]ne site will give a player five stars and another will give them two, or less (sic)
Show me an example.
Red Cup Rebellion - An Ole Miss Blog
Turns out that we're not very good at football.
by Juco All-American on Feb 3, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
They're good on a macro scale, not a micro one.
Individual players will or will not live up to that billing, but it’s no mistake that Bama and LSU are routinely at the top of the team rankings.
tripleB.tumblr.com // msbeernut.com
indeed
a team that continually fills their needs with four and five star players will continually have talent even though some of those individuals players will be busts. Perhaps I chose a wrong word, but I think that I have adequately explained my point. There are a lot of websites out there, most of which are for fans, that rate players and some are more accurate than others. Of course, everyone has their biases and some guesswork must be applied. The best websites are not what I’ll call the mass market ones but rather the ones intended for coaches. The ones that actually go into DETAIL to tell you WHY this player is projected to be good.
I don't know about them being "more accurate than inaccurate".
I see that claimed a lot, and it’s universally based on some claim about “30-40% of 5-stars are drafted, compared to 3-5% of 4-stars, and so on”. The problem with that is that since the populations are not of a statistically similar size, comparing the percentages is not a valid analysis.
The pure numbers tell a vastly different story. Something like 3-4 times as many 3-star players will be drafted compared to 5-star players. The fact that only 38% of 5-star players will be drafted is absolutely laughable, especially when a far larger number of lower-rated players will also be drafted. It’s not even a “well, the higher rated players will be drafted higher” situation, because that trend doesn’t hold, in general.
Frankly, the recruiting services don’t have any business trying to do anything than maybe rank the top 50-100 overall players. They don’t have the metrics or resources to do anything else. But, if they did this, their staggeringly inadequate “accuracy” would become apparent when the NFL draft (including the top 10) was dominated by guys that didn’t make the recruiting services’ lists. The services’ first motives are to make money, and they’ve found a way to do that without being necessarily accurate, but rather by using invalid statistical comparisons to “trick” (for lack of a better word) people into thinking that they’re accurate.
Off my soapbox now.
Draftability isn't my argument.
My argument is production at a high level in college.
Red Cup Rebellion - Changing the Culture of Ole Miss Athletics
Sports are chaotic and stupid; and we're bad at them.
by The Ghost of Jay Cutler on Feb 4, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
How is comparing the percentages not a valid analysis, especially compared to pure numbers?
Of course more 3 star players will be drafted, there are 1000x more of them than 5 star players. The fact that “40%” of 5 star players are drafted compared to “3-5%” of 4 star players only proves that their is value to the rating system. That means if you sign a 5 star players versus 4 stars you are 10x as likely to get an NFL prospect on your college team (comparing 40% to ~4%).
No one can argue that the rating services are hit and miss. But so is the NFL draft. There are some things that scouts just can’t or won’t value.
The best argument I can make for valuing the ratings is to compare the crootin rankings to the final AP/BCS rankings. It’s no coincidence that LSU, Ohio State, Alabama, Oklahoma, ect. are consistently at the top of both.
"They score so fast it messes you up" - Houston Nutt
Recruiting Class
True, this class is not the most hyped, star-loaded class we have ever had….but people have got to look at things in context. Those super ranked classes of the past few years have gotten our fans spoiled expecting a top 20 recruiting class ranking. Those super ranked classes, while still having plenty time to prove themselves, produced plenty of no-shows and a 2 win season this past year.
The state of the program at Ole Miss is in far worse shape than any of us imagined.
We have a new coach, new staff, new system. We just had the most pathetic season in our school history.
This class, while not on par with Alabama (not many classes are), is a decent class of contributors with some exceptional guys like Ward. The fact that, with two months, we were in on some big-time recruits and managed to land guys like Ward, Mathers, Elston is remarkable.
It is always darkest before the dawn.
The program is going to have to take it’s medicine before it gets any better.
Hopefully we are on the road to recovery.
It just takes time and incremental steps.
There is no way anyone could have come in and fixed all the glaring problems and holes in one class, in two months.
This is just one building block, one step.
With the tweets that our guys are sending out…it seems that the culture might be in the right direction. Only time will tell.
Come on...
This might not be the best signing class but at least Coach Freeze got out and fought for these recruits and they still had us as part of their top schools. There may not be the strongest class numbers wise, but there are always dark horses in any class. To get to the point, its about time to be positive about something. Basketball is in the hunt and baseball is around the corner. Lets be a little positive for once. Some positivity from the fan base could go a long way.
For once?
We as a fan base are always unreasonably positive. Look at the results.
Red Cup Rebellion - An Ole Miss Blog
Turns out that we're not very good at football.
by Juco All-American on Feb 3, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I like being unreasonably positive
I always expect to win the next game regardless of the opponent.
Anything is better that what we were.......js
as stated above and agree….most of the blame falls on “sins of the past” not Freeze. He had les than a month to prepare and recruit. He did well considering the position he was in. We will see a different ,better team on the field this year and thats all you can ask for. Also pretty sure that we won`t see the “character” issues with players we’ve had in the past under Freezes watch. Hotty Toddy and go to hell LSU!!
Believe nothing you hear and nothing you pee!!
oh and.....
we ranked higher in recruiting than we did in any other catergory in 2011 footbal stats.
Believe nothing you hear and nothing you pee!!
by Rebel1 on Feb 3, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think JUCO's assessment is correct. We got some good players but we got a lot...
that did not have SEC offers. Freeze didn’t have a lot of time to work, so I will give him that. He will have to prove he is a recruiter NOW. If we sign a class in the mid 40’s next year, we will be in deeper shit than we are now.
The last two transition classes we had were better on paper because both head coaches and their respective new assistants came from programs that had been recruiting better players and were able to bring those signees with them. I.E., Arkansas’ leftovers are better that Ark St’s leftovers, Frank Wilson brought better players with hiim in 05 than Matt Luke did in 11.
Look, our program is in a shambles. It lies at the feet of the administration for making bad decision after bad decision. Prospective athletes know that.
We can be positive, talk about rainbows and unicorns or not losing the party, but it is not going to change the fact that our program is in such a mess that we had to hire a coach with minimal experience because that is the best we could do. Hopefully, the gamble will work. It worked in 95 with Tub, but failed in 05 with O. Hopefully, we have caught lightning in a bottle, but we won’t know for 3 years.
by RLBruceDickinson on Feb 3, 2012 10:16 AM EST reply actions
From here and comments in earlier threads, I pretty much agree with MDC
Without knowing as much about the players.
tripleB.tumblr.com // msbeernut.com
I was pretty disappointed that we missed on so many guys that we got to campus
Normally, if we can get them to visit late, we can beat a lot of teams and we didn’t do that this year.
With that said, now that I’ve had some time to cool off – I’m ok with it. We knew it was going to be bad coming off 2-10/4-8, new coach, the last coach quit soon after August, and MSU bubbling up during these guy’s junior season. Let’s use O’s 2005 class as a point of comparison. The 2005 class had some super stars:
Jerrel Powe (kinda)
Michael Oher
Peria Jerry (after Hargrave)
John Jerry (had to wait on Hargrave)
Burnell Wallace
Marcus Green
However, past that, we only had 3 non-kickers make it past their sophmore year:
Billy Tapp
Lamark Armour
Reid Neely
If this class can have 1 or 2 stars (Ward, Gross, Mathers are the most likely candidates) and 10 or 12 Reid Neely and Lamark Armours, we will be ok because the 2011 class is really stacked (study hard Nick) and by all accounts, we lead for a lot of guys in 2013.
However, if we have a lot of Wallace Bates, Gary Riggs, and Jada Brown’s – then we’re in trouble.
I think Freeze did an ok job of finding guys that will stick around and be contributors for 4 years in this class and made it as good as he could under the circumstances. It would have been nice to pull one or two more big names, but I don’t know how realistic that ever was.
Nutt’s 2008 class has all the misses of the 2005 class without the star power. A couple more guys hung around, but are really just filling up space on the roster EJ Epperson, Justin Smith, Gerald Rivers, Devin Thomas, Derrick Herman. He did get some decent Jucos in that class.
Bradley Sowell
makes me nostalgic for Reid Neely. He may not have been the most dominating lineman we’ve had, but I’ll be damned if he jumped offsides more than three times in his career.
"A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to."-Gandalf
by Mexter Dccluster on Feb 3, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
I contend
that the biggest culprit for Sowell’s twitching in his stance was coaching. It is tough for a tall man to maintain a three or four point stance for any length of time but there are tricks that a good coach can teach you that will help. It also doesn’t help when you have three different QBs start for you during the year. Each QB has his own vocal inflection and just when you get used to one, the coaches stick another in.
It was never Coach Nutt's fault
that Sowell couldn’t listen to a person say “Don’t go until I say hut-hut,” and then do that. Outside of disciplining the shit out of them, there’s nothing a coach can do about false starts.
"A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to."-Gandalf
by Mexter Dccluster on Feb 3, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Sowell was just a dumbass
Nothing more, nothing less.
Holding a snocone sign...
by hottytoddy07 on Feb 3, 2012 3:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Oooooooooooooh
You are so sued.
So sued.
"There's no better way to say 'I'm a badass' than the thumbs up. It's so hot right now."
I would be happy to pay the cost
just to see Sowell prove otherwise.
Holding a snocone sign...
by hottytoddy07 on Feb 3, 2012 5:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I dont think it's fair for anyone to say this class is "terrible"
I think it’s disrespectful of the hard work the coaches put in in the limited time they were given and it’s also a huge slap in the face of the guys we got. I bet none of you would go up to Channing Ward and tell him this recruiting class was awful. Sure, it would have been nice to get some more of our targets and the Liggins defection definitely stung, but unfortunately we aren’t in a position to be picky as a program right now. Now it’s time for these coaches to get these guys in the best shape possible for spring and summer and fall.
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by charlym on Feb 3, 2012 11:03 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
No one said it was.
Red Cup Rebellion - An Ole Miss Blog
Turns out that we're not very good at football.
by Juco All-American on Feb 3, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Looking at our current roster
We met glaring needs.
QB- the hardest position to evaluate, but you have to think Wallace will be the guy.
I am in the minority, but Liggins is a project QB. Whenever I hear a weakness of a given QB is “he needs to work on his accuracy.” I’m glad he didn’t go to state because he was perfect for their system. Liggins played for Lafayette, not SP or OB, and faced a lower level of competition. I do not think he will ever play QB at LSu, maybe TE, if he has good hands.
OL- Conyers wrestled gators so I’m guessing he is a tough, mean, SOB.
I like our running backs.
I like our depth at DE.
DT Shackleford will be the anchor of the defense. So, I’m thinking some of the BS/ taking plays off will be taken care of.
This team will play the toughest schedule of any team in the country. I’m thinking 4 wins, maybe more if we’re lucky, and offensively Freeze will have to play wide open to give us a chance.
by hotstove97 on Feb 3, 2012 11:40 AM EST via mobile reply actions
should have said/ read
Wherever I hear a weaknesses of a given QB is, " he needs to work on accuracy", I cringe.
by hotstove97 on Feb 3, 2012 11:47 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
ah opinions
isn’t it great? opinions and buttholes— we all have them and most of them stink but life would definitely not be as good without them. As far as sharing, however, let’s just stay with opinions…
a lot of people make good money "sharing" the other
"They score so fast it messes you up" - Houston Nutt
All of us
have opinions but none of us know crap about this class and won’t for at least a year or two. Been a supporter for over 50 yeras and will continue to be optimistic and supportive every year.
We have been a god-awful program
For all but two years since 2003. This class is what happens when you suck that badly for that long and do nothing about it. Frankly it’s been a miracle that we’ve gotten the good classes we have up until now.
For the better part of a decade we have been getting guys in here who’ve chosen Ole Miss based almost entirely on potential playing time, as opposed to winning.
I think — I hope — this class, meager though it may be, might be the first one in a while that chose to come here to win, and not just play. It’d be a start.
Nobody cares about your signature.
rivals ranks rebs' crootin class no. 13 out of 14, in the sec, just ahead of UK who is last.
13. Ole Miss
? Commit List
? RebelGrove.com
? Message Board
Headliner: Rivals100 defensive end Channing Ward is an elite pass rusher who also excels against the run.
Sleeper: Athlete Mike Hilton could play cornerback or possibly be an all-purpose back for the Rebels. He has the skills to become a fine player at either spot, even though he isn’t very big.
Overview: The first class for new coach Hugh Freeze included the Magnolia State’s top prospect, Ward, who has the potential to be a true difference-maker in Oxford because he not only possesses good size, but great quickness and explosiveness. Without question Ward was the marquee signee for the Ole Miss staff, which got a late start because of the coaching change with the Rebels. But the defense also picked up tackle Issac Gross, a player who performed at a high level in the Under Armour All-America Game. On offense, the Rebels did well for themselves at running back and quarterback. Junior college signal caller Bo Wallace is a good one while tailbacks I’Tavius Mathers and Jaylen Walton provide Ole Miss with two terrific talents. Mathers is more of the every-down back. Walton is a shifty runner with very good speed.
Deserve's got nothin' to do with it. Will Munny, The Unforgiven
bad class? Lucky to have a class???
Fn D.Jones Fn Bear Fn fractured fan base Fn Nutt Fn national joke Fn Boone Fn Mullen&Assoc. FnJones&Boone Fn no coaching Fn lazy rule breakers Fn Forward Rebels Fn handling of Boone&Nutt Fn 18 yo egos Fn 6 weeks to recruit Fn 2-10 season Fn no discipline/motivation…who wants to be a part of that? Come on baby Rebels, I promise to cheer harder for y’all than I ever have before.!!!
Hotty Toddy and FDWL…I have to get my nails done now.
I don't give a fuck
Sports are for entertainment. Let’s just hang out and hope our rebels win so we can be a little happyz. They gon play we gon watch. That’s about all the analysis you can muster #drunj
by MattSaracen on Feb 4, 2012 12:19 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Freeze stopping at 19 signees (4 Jucos, 2 greyshirts, 13 highschool) is likely the key to this class...
that gives us 6 spots to dole out to December signees while still allowing us to sign 25 in February. Obviously that means nothing if we can’t sign some impact guys with those spots. I am guessing they will target defensive players, primarily DT and LB, to make up for the lack thereof this year.
Unfortunately, a cursory look at the roster illustrates we only have about 20 to-be seniors on scholly; assuming no attrition, we will be in roughly the same spot we were in this signing season in terms of overall room to reach the 85-man limit.
As for my opinion of this class, I tend to concur with the overall assessment of most-decent quality at the top (Ward, Mathers, Elston, Gross), some good players in the middle (Walton, Hilton, Strong, Conyers, Still) and some decent down-the-line role players. The Jucos (hopefully) meet our immediate needs and at least 1 of the less-regarded guys will prove the rankings wrong (though that will likely be balanced by a projected stud being a bust).
Just another "good for nothing law school grad".
Those 6 spots are VERY crucial....
I kind of assumed this but CHF stated in his Q&A, JuCo wise, they’ll be going after an OT, DT, LB, CB and best player available at any position…
You take 4-6 immediate impact players that count towards this current class and pair them with a full 25 in what expects to be a monster 2013 class for us and things look pretty damn bright.
As long as we can have moderate success this year…
Look for Jaylen Walton to be a very good change of pace back for us this year.
by Ol Dirty Faulkner on Feb 4, 2012 6:17 PM EST reply actions
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